Zuryna Livermore: thank you so much for
joining me on this Moms Unfiltered edition
of the Operations Unfiltered podcast.
I like to do these shows because I
wanna make sure that all of my mom
entrepreneurs, expecting moms have
the right people, processes, and tools
zainabchopra: Absolutely
Zuryna Livermore: successful.
So welcome.
Thank you
zainabchopra: Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm honored to be here, especially I love
this platform you've created for moms.
I think it's amazing.
Zuryna Livermore: thank you so
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: started it because I had
so many questions, and I'm realizing that
a lot of people have the same questions.
zainabchopra: Yes.
Zuryna Livermore: why not have a forum
for us to get our questions answered?
zainabchopra: Absolutely.
I love it
Zuryna Livermore: now can you
introduce yourself and which
organization you are supporting?
zainabchopra: Sure.
So my name is Zainab Chopra.
I am a birth and postpartum doula, and I
am with the Womb Room over in Baltimore
Zuryna Livermore: Okay.
And how long have you
been with The Womb Room?
zainabchopra: I've been with The Womb Room
for a couple years now, um, and overall
been a doula for going on four years, and
before that I was in the education space.
Zuryna Livermore: Oh, we love to hear.
I
zainabchopra: Yes.
yeah,
Zuryna Livermore: why this line of work?
What inspired you to get
involved in this type of work?
zainabchopra: Yeah, so it actually
started when my sister-in-law
gave birth four years ago.
And, um, I just kinda
fell into being her doula.
It was not a formal thing at all.
Um, and I was lucky enough to be
with her in the birth space, um,
and then as well as postpartum.
And I think when she was just in the thick
of it in the last trimester, and then
going into the hospital several times with
some complications, it was just clear to
me how vital a, um, advocate, how helpful
they are for you, especially as a Black
and brown woman in the medical space.
Zuryna Livermore: for sure
zainabchopra: to have just another witness
in the room sometimes, to have someone as
a sounding board, um, and to have someone
who is there to represent you and help you
advocate for yourself is something I think
very, is very important for us especially.
Zuryna Livermore: Oh my gosh, you are
taking the words right out of my mouth.
I gave birth four years ago, and
zainabchopra: Mm
Zuryna Livermore: I honestly wish
that I would have invested in
postpartum ca- doula support, doula
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: just
because you are so right.
It feels like, you know, especially
Black and brown women, we need that
advocate and we need that extra support.
So that
zainabchopra: Absolutely.
Zuryna Livermore: next question.
What exactly is a postpartum doula, and
what role do they play in supporting a mom
and, and families throughout this process?
zainabchopra: Yeah,
that's a great question.
So a postpartum doula is there, um, for
you as soon as week one from the hospital.
A postpartum doula will
be coming to your home.
Um, we are there for baby care,
baby support, baby education, so all
things baby of course, but also a
large chunk of our work is supporting
parents in this huge life transition.
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah
zainabchopra: I've always thought
it's a bit crazy that, you know, you
have a baby at the hospital, you go
through this huge m- moment of, you
know, changing your life, and then the
doctors are kinda like, "All right.
There's your baby.
See ya."
You know?
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah
zainabchopra: you get, like, a little
check-in at six weeks, but that's it.
No one trains you on
how to be a parent, you
know?
Zuryna Livermore: sure,
for sure.
And I know from my experience, I, I did
a lot of WebMD research, but I feel like
zainabchopra: As we do
Zuryna Livermore: like having
someone there in your corner
zainabchopra: Absolutely
Zuryna Livermore: 'cause it
is really a vulnerable time.
Like, I'm wearing diapers, the baby's
zainabchopra: Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Zuryna Livermore: to latch?
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: personal experience, um,
I felt like I just wasn't doing enough.
I wasn't doing the right thing,
zainabchopra: Uhum.
Zuryna Livermore: my daughter wasn't
latching correctly, and so it was
zainabchopra: uhum
Zuryna Livermore: So I really feel like
this is such a useful tool that we need
to have in our tool bag, especially as an
zainabchopra: Absolutely.
Yes
Zuryna Livermore: to that point,
when should an expectant parent begin
considering, like, postpartum doula
support or doula support in general?
zainabchopra: So I think dual support
is something you should consider
while you are still pregnant.
So as early as the first trimester, while
you are creating your nursery and getting
all your baby items and doing all that,
you should be giving that same energy
to giving yourself care and support, and
kinda creating that care and support plan.
Zuryna Livermore: Ja
zainabchopra: so I would say as
early as your second trimester, you
could be reaching out to agencies in
your area and interviewing doulas.
Um, I always say that postpartum
doulas are like my favorite
baby shower gift because that
Zuryna Livermore: Nee,
zainabchopra: is, um, like
that is an irreplaceable gift
you can give somebody, you
Zuryna Livermore: Oh, I
zainabchopra: interrupted overnight
support for, with a doula.
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah.
Now, what are some of the tasks?
I know you mentioned baby care and
zainabchopra: Yes
Zuryna Livermore: but walk me through,
like, I don't know, like a shift as a
zainabchopra: Yeah.
Zuryna Livermore: doula.
What does that look like?
zainabchopra: So typically I would go in,
I would check in with the parents, how
the day has been, how the night has been.
We would go over any questions
that they have regarding feeding,
diapering, whatever's on their mind,
and then I'm there to support with
taking baby from them so that they
can go have a nap, take a shower.
Um, so there's the physical baby care,
and then the bottle washing, and helping
out with dishes, and household tasks, just
to kinda, like, keep your house in order
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah
zainabchopra: while you're
kinda doing everything.
And then, um, also a big chunk is,
my favorite, would be meal prepping,
and giving y- and, like, cooking some
meals for both mom and dad, or mom
and partner, so that you have really
nourishing home-cooked nutritious
meals, specifically, um, centered around
if you're breastfeeding, ones that
support lactation and things like that.
Zuryna Livermore: Oh, that is amazing.
zainabchopra: Yeah.
Zuryna Livermore: have that, needed that.
zainabchopra: Needed it.
Zuryna Livermore: about my
experience, like, oh my gosh, this
is the key piece that was missing.
zainabchopra: Yes
Zuryna Livermore: how long does
that service, a postpartum doula
service, like what are the increments?
What does that whole experience look like?
zainabchopra: Yeah, so you can
have a postpartum as early as week
one, like I said, and it goes up
until about three, four months of,
Zuryna Livermore: wow
zainabchopra: baby.
So it's totally dependent on
what your schedule's like.
We offer overnight care, so typically
that would be, like, coming in around 9:00
or 10:00 PM and staying until 7:00 AM.
Um, so we are there.
We'll take the baby from you.
We will, if you're pumping or
breastfeeding, we'll bring the baby
to you in bed so you don't have
to get up or anything like that,
take the baby back, diapering,
burping, put them back to sleep.
So you're getting, like, you get a 10-hour
uninterrupted chunk of time for yourself.
Zuryna Livermore: Oh my goodness, that
would have made my whole entire life
zainabchopra: Yeah.
It's insane, right?
Zuryna Livermore: kid.
Yes.
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: and honestly, it's like
you don't know what you don't know, and I
zainabchopra: Exactly
Zuryna Livermore: so much during
my whole pregnancy journey
zainabchopra: Yes
Zuryna Livermore: didn't even
consider that there is help, you
zainabchopra: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: So what are some
of the common misconceptions that
you've come across as a postpartum
doula about the work that you all do?
zainabchopra: I think, I feel like
we've all heard a version of this
is like, "Oh, postpartum doula, I
didn't have that and I was fine."
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah,
zainabchopra: from previous
generations, like, we'll hear moms
or grandmas say like, "Oh, well,
I didn't have a postpartum doula.
You turned out fine."
Right?
Like, I mean, itâ¦
And I think what that kinda
gives is that, um, postpartum
care can be seen as a luxury,
Zuryna Livermore: Uhm
zainabchopra: and I think
it's, it's kinda funny.
Like, when did we start classifying
support and care for moms as a luxury?
Why is it not just a given, right?
Like, why do we see it as,
"Oh, you really need that?"
Like, yes, we do really need that, right?
And so I think, um, a big one is that it's
seen as a luxury, and then another one is
saying that it's like a new fad, right?
Like postpartum doulas is a new thing.
It is absolutely not a new thing.
Doulas have existed within
majority of other cultures for
centuries, for generations.
We've had a version of a doula.
You know, in a lot of different
communities when a woman gives birth,
um, women kind of, a group of women
will take over and give, pour back
into mom in massages, in meals, in,
you know, physically, emotionally.
And, um, there's more of an emphasis
on other cultures of pouring back
into mom after she gives birth.
I think a big emphasis in like
Western culture is bounce back.
Like you just gave birth?
Okay, let's bounce back.
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah
zainabchopra: I feel like I'm grateful
that postpartum doulas are becoming more
common because it's putting an emphasis
back that you don't need to bounce back.
You can take this as slowly as you
need to, and there are people that
are around that are here and want to
support you in the ways that you need.
Zuryna Livermore: amazing.
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: I, thinking back
to my experience, I didn't really
realize how much I had ingested
that whole bounce back culture.
And now looking back, I'm like, "I
really could have used that extra
zainabchopra: Yeah.
Zuryna Livermore: time."
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: I know a lot
of times, um, expecting moms and
moms who are entering this new
motherhood journey, finances and
logistics can often be a barrier.
So can you talk a
zainabchopra: Yes
Zuryna Livermore: what the financial
aspect of this care looks like,
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: people, you
know, how you can reach people at
different, you know, tax brackets?
'Cause to that point, some people
think, "I can't afford it,"
zainabchopra: Yes.
Zuryna Livermore: that look like?
zainabchopra: I think that's a great
question, um, because sometimes it
can feel a little unattainable, you
know, of, of this t- type of care.
But luckily right now, there's
ways that make it more attainable.
Medicaid now covers birth and postpartum
for, in Maryland, so that's a big,
that, you know, that helps a huge
community of people that really need it.
Um, and then my focus in my work
is to meet people where they're at.
So if you need support, I will
do what is within my capacity
to meet you where you are.
If you can only, um, if it'sâ¦
Sometimes I offer a sliding
scale for clients because that
makes it a little bit easier.
Um, I don't think care should just
be given to people who can afford it.
I think it should be given to everybody.
Um, so the agency that I work with,
The Womb Room, we do like to work with
clients as well to see what is within
their capacity, what makes sense with us.
You know, it's not like a,
"Oh, you can't afford this?
Sorry."
You
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah
zainabchopra: like to, like,
we wanna work with you.
We wanna figure out what
we can do to support you.
And
Zuryna Livermore: love
zainabchopra: I find, like, a lot
of doulas are like that because
this, this care isn't exclusive to
a, you know, it, everyone needs it.
Zuryna Livermore: Absolutely.
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: we've seen in
the media the harsh treatment
that women have gone through,
especially Black and brown women,
um, during the labor process.
Now, I know that you do support
postpartum doula care, but can you
speak a little bit about how the, a
actual doula supports mom during that?
And then what would you do in those
situations if you were, I don't know,
supporting a mom who was being told,
"You're not ready for labor," and you
can actively see that she's in labor?
How do
you approach things like that?
zainabchopra: That's an
interesting question.
So, like, when you were in
the bir- birth space more so?
Zuryna Livermore: For
zainabchopra: How canâ¦
Yeah, so I think, um, my biggest
thing is I tell my clients, "I am
not there to s- advocate for you.
I am there to give you the tools so
that you can advocate for yourself."
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah
zainabchopra: when I am in the labor
room with you, I am not going to
be, you know, in the doctor's or the
nurse's faces being like, "You know,
you need to be doing this right now.
You need to be paying attention,"
because there is also, umâ¦
Hospitals have their own cultures and
their own dynamics and things like that.
And so I think as doulas, we learn
to have a presence in the room,
to be known and to be, you know,
heard when we are spoke- when we are
speaking, but not in a, "I'm trying
to take over this labor" type of way.
Zuryna Livermore: Absolutely
zainabchopra: a big thing is I, in
my prenatal sessions before birth
with a client, we'll go over some
scenarios of, you know, let's say the
doctor wants to do this intervention,
and you don't really wanna do it.
Zuryna Livermore: Uhum
zainabchopra: something that we
can say in that moment so that the
doctor knows that that's a hard stop?
Zuryna Livermore: Mhm
zainabchopra: it's as easy as,
like, practicing saying no before
we are in the delivery room.
Um, and then just, and just letting our
clients know that they have more options
before they are presented with something
in the height of a moment during labor,
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah
zainabchopra: So the education
beforehand is really important because
it helps them have the tools to feel
comfortable advocating for themselves
in moments where something's not
really going the way they anticipated.
Zuryna Livermore: Absolutely.
I think that is so, so important.
Um, I think self-advocacy is
really crucial, especially in these
zainabchopra: Absolutely.
Zuryna Livermore: vulnerability.
zainabchopra: Yes
Zuryna Livermore: you say that is super
encouraging, especially 'cause I know that
I have a lot of pregnant friends and a lot
of moms who are exploring this journey,
zainabchopra: Mhm.
Zuryna Livermore: entering this journey.
So, um, self-advocacy i- is, is the
zainabchopra: Huge.
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah.
zainabchopra: I agree.
It's more, I think it's so, it's
the most powerful thing you can do.
Zuryna Livermore: Absolutely.
And now, what are a few practical
ways that new moms can better
prepare for that postpartum period?
zainabchopra: Mm, that's a good question.
I would say, um, if you're
interested in a postpartum doula,
if you are pregnant, reach out now.
Reach out as early as
your first trimester.
See who's in your area, who you support,
or who you can get support from.
Um, and then another one I like to say is,
um, have conversations with your partner
and the support people, um, around you.
Um, sometimes when we are in postpartum,
we are feeling overwhelmed, we're anxious,
and we don't know how to communicate,
like, what we need, or we might be
too exhausted to communicate even.
So, um, I like to tell my clients
to, like, run through a scenario.
When you are feeling overwhelmed,
what is something thatâ¦
W- how does that manifest
within your body?
What does that look like?
And then what are things
that typically soothe you?
And while you're having these
conversations ahead of time, your partner
can kind of take notes, like, literally,
like, write them down, like, you know,
and keep that in your mind so that
when you see your partner, you know,
shutting down or isolating, you know,
"Oh, I think they're feeling overwhelmed.
I know what to do for them."
Instead of coming to them being
like, "What do you need right now?
Like, I don't know how to support you."
You know?
'Cause that makes it
even more overwhelming.
So I think having conversations about
communication and what support you may
need ahead of time is really helpful.
Zuryna Livermore: Mhm.
Oh
zainabchopra: and then, like
I said, like preparing, as you
prepare your nursery, prepare your
support team and the care you need.
Zuryna Livermore: Absolutely.
I love that so much.
And
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: directly to
partners of expecting parents, what
zainabchopra: Mhm.
Zuryna Livermore: and don'ts that
you would recommend, especially with
interacting with a postpartum doula?
'Cause I know a lot of
times, sometimes the partner may
be feeling like they're in the way,
zainabchopra: Yeah
Zuryna Livermore: the other part
of that, like, "Oh, I, I can help.
Why do we need a postpartum doula?"
So what are some recommendations
or dos and don'ts that you
would have for a partner?
zainabchopra: That's a fun one.
It's, it is, that is definitely a
thing where partners will be like,
"Well, why do you need a doula?
I'm right here," type thing.
But, um, we, doulas just come with
a vast amount of experience, and
also we have training in this.
You know, like, we have training
in how to support lactation.
We've taken the courses,
we've done the things.
We know the clients that have
experienced a lot of these things before.
So we come with experience that
maybe you just don't have in
that moment, and that's okay.
Um, and I think a big thing is I
always emphasize I'm not there to sup-
to replace your partner in any way.
I am there to help facilitate a closer,
um, relationship between you and your
partner, you know, in helping you guys
communicate through things or creating
the space for you to communicate.
Um, so I would say a big, a big don't
is just don't assume that we are
there to take over your job, you know?
We are there to support, but your
partner is most often your safety,
your comfort, so I'm not gonna
be there to replace that role.
Zuryna Livermore: I love that.
I love that.
zainabchopra: Yeah.
Zuryna Livermore: a lot about training.
What exactly are the types
of trainings that doulas and
postpartum doulas go through?
Things that we should be looking for
or asking during interview questions.
Um, what, what does
the training look like?
zainabchopra: So you want your doula
to be certified in birth, if you're
doing a birth doula, you want them to be
certified in that, or, um, postpartum,
so you want them to have received
some sort of like formal training.
Um, legally there is nothing needed for
you to become a doula, so anyone could
really, you know, become a doula, but
you want someone who has that formal
background and that formal training.
Um, so different, you know, s- different
doula schools, like DONA is a big one.
Um, so look for those certifications.
Um, I would say that's
probably the biggest thing,
and also look for experience.
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah
zainabchopra: do- uh, doulas that
have worked with similar types of
clients before and things like that.
Um, and then a big one I always say is
that when you are looking for a doula,
choose a doula you would grab coffee with,
choose a doula you would go and, you know,
go get lunch with or go, you know, have
fun with, because birth and postpartum
is a very vulnerable experience,
Zuryna Livermore: Yes
zainabchopra: someone who you feel
comfortable with, you know, who
kinda like gets your humor a little
bit, gets your, you know, whatever.
Like, so you haveâ¦
So it doesn't feel like a transactional,
you know, type of, um, interaction.
You know, you want this to be a true
friend of yours in, in a way, in a sense
Zuryna Livermore: Absolutely.
You, you hit it right on the head.
The vulnerable
nature of this experience means
that when you're curating your
village and your support, you wanna
make sure that you guys mesh well.
zainabchopra: Exactly
Zuryna Livermore: as a postpartum
doula, has there ever been an experience
where you just felt like, "Okay, this
is out of my scope," and what did you
do to address that?
zainabchopra: That's an
interesting question.
I don't think, um, I haven't had
that experience per se where I've
been like, "Ooh, this is a lot,"
Zuryna Livermore: Yeah.
zainabchopra: But, um, I will say
typically, you know, every family
looks different, and, um, sometimes
family like, um, extended family
dynamics can add a different
energy in the household, I'll say.
So, like, when mother-in-laws are
visiting or moms, you know, I, there
is a, um, I would say that the older
generations maybe have, like, a stigma of
Zuryna Livermore: Ja.
zainabchopra: having a stranger come
in your house and help with your baby.
You know what I mean?
Especially in different
cultures and things like that.
So I always like to be very aware of
the culture of the house that I'm going
into, if it's a different religion
or if they are, you know, from a
different country, whatever it may be.
I wanna be as informed as possible
so I'm not disrespectful in
any way to it, the, you know,
family members or whatever it is.
Um, so I will say just, like,
navigating family dynamics can be
interesting sometimes, but I'll say
it's on, I think it's on the doula
to be, um, considerate and aware
of the household you're going into.
Zuryna Livermore: Absolutely.
I call it my read the room meter.
Like, you
zainabchopra: I love that.
Zuryna Livermore: the room.
zainabchopra: Yeah, I like that a lot.
Zuryna Livermore: Yes.
So is there one final thought that you
would have for someone who is pregnant,
expecting, um, entering this journey?
What piece of advice would
you give them quickly?
Like, a quick summary, like 30-second
elevator pitch type of thing
zainabchopra: I would say that asking for
help and support does not make you a bad
mom, does not make you an incapable mom.
To be able to ask and receive
support will make you a better mom
in the moment and going forward.
Zuryna Livermore: Ooh, I got the chills
zainabchopra: That's like my, my
bite-size advice, I would say.
Zuryna Livermore: Ugh.
Yes, yes, and it is so needed
and it is so necessary.
Like I said, reflecting back on that
journey, I kinda felt like I needed
to be the strong Black woman and I can
zainabchopra: Yes.
Yes.
Zuryna Livermore: not necessarily the case
zainabchopra: No, and it, and
it, uh, often, like, doesn't
really help us that much.
It makes us feel more isolated
or, you know, so definitely
Zuryna Livermore: Oh, I love that.
Now, how can we get in touch with
you, the Womb Room, if someone's
starting this journey looking to,
to make the, you know, make the
charge and get a postpartum doula?
What is,
zainabchopra: Oh sure
Zuryna Livermore: information?
How do we get booked with
you and all the things?
zainabchopra: so you would go ahead,
if you're in the Baltimore or DC
area, The Womb Room services both.
So you go ahead, head to The Womb
Room website, and you would fill
out our intake form over there.
And, um, on our website, we give a
brief overview of all of our doulas
that we have, birth and postpartum,
so you can read a couple, like,
different overviews of everyone.
And then you'll be matched with
three different doulas that
you'll have a consultation with.
Zuryna Livermore: Love
zainabchopra: You'll chat with them,
they'll go over their services, and
then you get to choose which doula
kinda felt like the most best fit
for you, and you can go from there.
Zuryna Livermore: I love that.
And do you
zainabchopra: Yeah.
Zuryna Livermore: social media?
You know, I always say
I'm a marketing manager,
zainabchopra: Yes.
Zuryna Livermore: is the
zainabchopra: For sure.
Zuryna Livermore: funnel, so
zainabchopra: For sure.
Um, I, I always forget what our
Instagram is, but, um, ifâ¦
I will, I can definitely send it to you.
It's @roomatbaltimore,
something like that, .baltimore.
Zuryna Livermore: Love it, love it, love
zainabchopra: But I'll definitelyâ¦
Zuryna Livermore: that in the
episode description for everyone
so that way we can reach out.
zainabchopra: Perfect
Zuryna Livermore: has been amazing.
I feel like this is always
such a needed conversation.
Like I said, so many people in the
Black and brown community are like,
"Well, I don't know if I need that."
And you do.
It's
zainabchopra: You do.
Zuryna Livermore: for support.
It is
zainabchopra: You do.
Yes
Zuryna Livermore: thank you so much
for joining me on this Moms Unfiltered
edition of Operations Unfiltered
zainabchopra: Absolutely.
Thank you for having me